‘It’s full-on’: Waratahs boss answers the tough questions after another underwhelming year

Q: It sounds like coach Darren Coleman gave the players a fair old spray. Is that a fair call?

PD: That’s probably a fair call. There was a massive sign on the door at the hotel saying ‘Keep Out’. We were on the other side of the door doing some other stuff, so I can imagine it would have been a robust discussion.

Q: What about the team’s results since you took over in 2020? The team was winless in 2021 and didn’t make it past the quarter-finals in 2022 and 2023. The team is now second last. How do you reflect on that?

PD: Certainly the winless year was crazy tough. The decision [to sack coach] Rob Penney we didn’t take easily, and we hoped we would have a rebound. We wanted to get someone that’s incredibly passionate from NSW that could see that pathway from Shute Shield into professional rugby. Darren has been great in that space. When you’re the largest union from Australia with the largest player base, you’d always like to think you’re like the Brumbies and always at the top end of the table. That hasn’t been the case, which is disappointing.

Q: Did sacking Penney after five games in 2021 – and the team not winning a game for the remainder of the season – influence your thinking around potential decisions this year?

PD: I don’t think we’re in the same space. Our conversation wasn’t about the dismissal of Darren. It was more a case of what are the lessons learned from last time, when we thrust two less experienced assistant coaches into the head coach’s role. What do we really get out of that? History suggests that it didn’t shift anything. We’ve tried to provide proper framework to give feedback, which has taken us a bit more time. I’ll be the first to admit that. If you had to, would you sack another coach mid-season? You’d have to weigh up all the different options.

Q: Can you sympathise with Coleman given he won’t know his fate until the season ends? The same goes for assistants and other members of staff who, from those I speak to, are very keen on clarity.

PD: It’s tough but at the same time it’s not unusual. It does delay things a little bit to the end of the season. But I’d rather be in a position of making decisions with all the information. I’m pretty comfortable with where we’re at. We’ve kept Darren in the loop. He seems to be – we wouldn’t use the word relaxed – in a position where he understands what we’re doing.

Q: What did the recent review entail?

PD: We used a consultant from World Rugby – it didn’t cost us anything – and Mike Chu came in and ran some focus groups with some players. He did some one-on-one interviews with players. He presented that information and said to Darren, ‘here are your strengths, you were aware of these things, here are some work-ons that we think you really should consider’. We’re looking for an intent and then that gets factored into the season review.

Q: Was any of the feedback to Coleman related to things off the field?

PD: Correct. Well, the leadership [component of the review] is to drive the best on-field performance. Not everything is about win-loss. You could make the assumption – and I’m not saying we have – that winning only two games, are there things that aren’t working off the field? That’s the challenge we’ve got.

Q: As of today, could Coleman still be offered a contract extension or not?

PD: We take a very positive perspective. We’re giving Darren feedback [with the] goal that he’s the guy that we can choose going forward. But you won’t hear me say he’s got the full support of the board because you know what that means.

Q: You’ve said the decision on Coleman will be made after the season, who actually makes the call?

PD: Our high-performance committee will make a recommendation to the NSW Waratahs board. That board features Tony Crawford and Sally Fielke from the NSW Rugby board. Then there are two people from Rugby Australia: Matt Hanning and Karen Penrose. Then you have Richard Harry and Dave Dennis. The board makes the final decision.

Q: Do players want certainty around their coach next year or do you get the sense they don’t really care?

PD: I think it’s a nice thing to know but not a necessity. I’m not convinced that it’s a reason people stay or leave in its entirety.

Q: Who’s doing recruitment for 2025?

PD: Ben Whitaker is acting as our general manager, which has been amazing. DC has always got a say in that area, as do Peter Horne and Joe Schmidt around the national top-ups. Then ultimately there’s a budget envelope that we’ve got to work towards.

Q: Has anyone been sounded out as Waratahs coach in 2025 in case Coleman is not reappointed?

PD: I had to laugh. I do read a bit of social media occasionally if I’m waiting at an airport. I love the people suggesting there is someone waiting already in the wings. I can guarantee – at the moment – our focus is trying to make our program as strong as we possibly can. I’m certainly not out there canvassing people [for the role]. People call, of course. I’m not talking to anyone. People want to know what’s happening with the process.

Q: Can you give us some names?

PD: I’ve got big ears, mate. I hear names all the time but I’m not out there actively seeking and talking to people.

Q: What about your position as CEO? When you handed the keys over to RA…

PD: I hate that phrase, Tom.

TD: Why?

PD: Largely because Waratahs Limited is its own company. NSW Rugby own the Waratahs. When people say that you handed the keys over it implies that Rugby Australia is completely in charge. We’re a separate company, which happens to be owned by Rugby Australia. It’s autonomous in the sense that it’s got to do what’s best for the Waratahs and NSW. I always get a little bit antsy around people saying that. We’re trying to build a new model where there is integration with a bit of push and shove. There’s still a bit of argy-bargy about how this thing works, but we’re very focused on what’s best for NSW, rest assured.

Q: But it would be correct to say your role might not be there next year, given RA will have a say in the structure of the business?

PD: Correct. We’ll do whatever it takes. It’ll be part of the discussion at the end of the year. I don’t know who’d do my stuff. Is there a GM of the Waratahs role that reports into RA? We’ll explore everything. If that’s what’s in the best interests of the company, I’ll have no problems with it.

Q: Are you happy with talent identification in NSW and retention of Waratahs players?

PD: We punch above our weight for sure. I think we do pretty well. We probably have historically had a churn-and-burn culture, which is a bit unfortunate. I’d be the first to say that that’s something that we’re trying to rectify. Once upon a time, when I read an article and it would say ‘former Waratah, player X, now at the Brumbies’ … you’d say jeez, they’re just having a dig. The reality is when you can only have 38 employees, and you’ve got so many kids coming through the system, you have to disperse that talent. Everyone’s holy grail is working it out. Which one do you keep? Which one do you have to let go? Sometimes you get that right. Sometimes you get that wrong.

Q: NSW generally has first crack though and that’s why fans may get annoyed when the Brumbies continue to outperform the Waratahs.

PD: We’ve got to manage a large cohort of kids coming through. Put it this way, everyone except us and the Reds has a different strategy, where they just watch and go ‘bang [and sign someone]’. It’s been incredibly successful for them.

They’ve got an amazing reputation down at the Brumbies. That’s not me having a shot. That’s just a different strategy. No one is an expert in it but it’s an area that I would say we’re always trying to do better in.

Q: NSW Rugby released its annual results last week. There was no press release about it.

PD: We just did a story on the website.

TD: Sure. But how did it come to be that there was a $4.8 million loss?

PD: Budgets get signed off in November or December. The big-ticket item for us was reduced funding from RA. We had hoped – like everybody – we might have gone down a path of private equity and the promises that were made would be fine. That didn’t happen. Once you get through Super Rugby and you have spent the money, it’s very hard to claw that back. [It was a combination of] RA funding, reduced crowds – even though they were better than 2022 – and we were also thinking the new stadium would provide us with the bump that would drive the difference in funding. In the Sydney market, gosh, if you’re not winning, it’s hard to get people to come. All our issues were not spending, just a lack of revenue that came in.

Even off the back of the World Cup, through the turmoil that was RA leading into this year, we haven’t done as bad as what I thought we were going to do.

Our financials will be better than last year.

Q: What is the reduction in funding now?

PD: Reduction in RA funding remains at $1.7 million.

Q: Were Super Rugby franchises sold a dummy by the promise of private equity last year?

PD: I don’t know if we were sold a dummy. There are people who are much more knowledgeable in that space.

What we’re all guilty of doing was getting excited about that being the saviour as opposed to doing what we’re doing now, which is changing our business models.

Q: Is the Super Rugby competition structure broken?

PD: I’ll sit on the fence on that one today until I know what’s going on with the Rebels. From a Super Rugby perspective, content is king, so we have to get more games.

Q: There has been an alarming injury rate among front-rowers at the Waratahs this year. Is that a concern?

PD: We’ve flagged this as an area we want to investigate further. There have been a lot of random things. But why all the front row? It’s unbelievable.

My initial reaction, which we will test, is it’s not a systemic issue. When we had Achilles after Achilles at the national level, that sounded like a loading problem. It’s been devastating for the poor old players.

Q: Max Jorgensen suffered another injury on the weekend in Shute Shield. Is he being managed correctly? There is a suggestion he did a big training session on the eve of the match.

PD: I wasn’t aware of that. From Darren’s perspective, we are incredibly conscious of not throwing you in every game. We have rotated people. He has sustained a few injuries. We do need to be super careful because he’s a great kid and special player but he’s still growing.

Q: We have covered a lot of ground but what do you think is going well within the organisation?

PD: We haven’t had the world’s greatest season. I’m the first to admit that. In terms of our fans, I don’t think we’ve lost anyone. I think people are backing the team. Players have been out and about [in the community]. Men’s and women’s programs have been amazing at club blitzes. The women’s team is also setting the benchmark for what a high-quality program looks like. There are many other things.

Q: Does this job take a toll on you? Do you still love it?

PD: I still enjoy it but it’s not shits and giggles. It was a baptism of fire in COVID. I’m very lucky I don’t have a problem sleeping, but that’s not through a lack of worry. It’s full-on and there’s no escaping it. I’ve just signed up at a new golf club and my greatest fear is that I’ll be talking about rugby for four hours. I’m doing it to try and do something other than rugby! Everyone has an opinion and that is great. That can be a bit draining. My work-life balance is probably up the shit to be honest, but I am fortunate.

Sports news, results and expert commentary. Sign up for our Sport newsletter.

Watch all the action from the 2024 Super Rugby Pacific season, with every match ad-free, live and on demand on Stan Sport.